Episode 69 - Max Farrell of Create Reason

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Geoff Wood:    Welcome to the Welch Avenue Show, episode number 69. Our guest today is the one and only Max Farrell, rapper, instigator and the co-founder of Create Reason. Max and his team worked inside of established companies to help with the corporate renovation process learning some of the better parts of the start-up experience inside those big walls. Before we check in with Max, I want to remind you that now is the perfect time to go to bit.ly/welchavenueitunes to leave a rating for our show. Even if you don't use iTunes to listen to the show, and I certainly don't, it's the best place for new people to discover great shows and your ratings help with that. Thanks in advance. On to episode 69 with Max Farrell.

Max Farrell:    Are you live? I had so many other questions for you, Geoff. I guess we'll just save it for afterwards. 

Geoff Wood:    Talking about on the podcast. Don't ask me questions on the podcast. Scott Herren, I think, was one who did that and became a double episode.

Max Farrell:    Because Geoff got asked questions.

Geoff Wood:    Yeah, I was like, “Oh, I got opinions, I’ll throw them out there.”

Chris New:    Can you beat 40 minutes?

Geoff Wood:    Yeah.

Max Farrell:    Oh man, we'll just go with the flow.

Geoff Wood:    It's the Max Farrell part 3 ... Well, Max, welcome. 

Max Farrell:    Thank you Geoff. It's a pleasure to be here.

Geoff Wood:    It's great to have you on. We tried to get you on a couple times but you're a busy kid, busy man with what you're working on.

Max Farrell:    Sorry, the stubble is just like a day old or so it’s all right.

Geoff Wood:    I like to get myself busy myself so I totally get that. Why don’t you start it by telling us about first who you are and what it is you're doing now.

Max Farrell:    Oh man, so my name is Max Farrell. I'm the co-founder of Create Reason. We focus on how to use innovation and engagement to get people excited about the work they do in established companies and also create new business initiatives within them. We're all about innovation.

Geoff Wood:    How long have you been doing this?

Max Farrell:    Full-time, about five or six months. 

Geoff Wood:    Prior to that, you were with Dwolla?

Max Farrell:    Yeah, I was with the Dwolla team for almost three years. I got to go through a lot of fun growth activities there.

Geoff Wood:    That was straight out of school for you, right? Your first job out of college?

Max Farrell:    Yeah, it was right after Grinnell College.

Geoff Wood:    Very cool. How many points did you score for the basketball team while you're at Grinnell College?

Max Farrell:    Did not score any points but saw points scored. That's actually one of the biggest rallying points for alums now is to see Grinnell keep popping up. I don’t know if you know but the former assistant coach is now the head coach of the Reno Bighorns.

Geoff Wood:    Twenty-four hours ago I did not know that but you shared a link on Facebook that I read.

Max Farrell:    It's good stuff, right?

Geoff Wood:    It is, it is.

Max Farrell:    There's a little Iowa pride that comes out all of us, just like yeah. Iowa’s making waves in the NBA. Start at Grinnell.

Geoff Wood:    Yeah, just seeing if the Grinnell thing is unique or is it something that can be played at other levels, I think was kind of what the gist of that was, right?

Max Farrell:    Yeah, it's all about experimentation. What's nice is that it's steadily tying Grinnell but Iowa as well and the system of how to make basketball fun for academically-inclined D3 players and will that work in professional basketball with the influence of a data-driven tech entrepreneur which is the owner of the Sacramento Kings, I can't remember his name but …

Geoff Wood:    Is he the casino guy?

Max Farrell:    He did the startup that fuels a lot of Wall Street's financial exchange. He built a platform for that.

Geoff Wood:    Vivek Ranadivé?

Max Farrell:    Yes. Vivek.

Geoff Wood:    Nice. He's no stranger to beating the odds. When he first moved from India to US, he had less than a hundred dollars in his pocket yet still managed to find his way through graduating MIT and Harvard with a Master’s degree, click to read more from Wikipedia. Nice.

Max Farrell:    I'm glad those are your sources, Wikipedia.

Geoff Wood:    Yeah, it's whatever the little stub that comes into Google is right now. You're a Grinnell kid. You came out. Where are you from prior to Grinnell?

Max Farrell:    I'm from Little Rock Arkansas originally so I'm Arkansas Razorback at heart but my dad is from Brooklyn, New York. I’ve got a little bit of East Coast roots.

Geoff Wood:    Nice, so you came up to Grinnell, to go to Grinnell College.

Max Farrell:    Absolutely.

Geoff Wood:    Decide to stick around and work in Des Moines after, to have this opportunity with Dwolla then went out on your own. You could go anywhere and do this Create Reason idea, why are you still working on it here?

Max Farrell:    One of the things that I learned quickly being in Des Moines is that while many of the folks that I graduated with went off and struggled on the coast in Chicago is that you can be a pioneer in the middle of the country.

Geoff Wood:    Is that Grinnell's mascot?

Max Farrell:    It is Grinnell's mascot but that's beside the point. Is that really be a pioneer. I think there's a lot of stories in Des Moines itself that start to lead to that. You've got things like the social club. You can build up from the ground up and have that arts and culture piece. You can have things like Gravitate which I know you're responsible for and build that from the ground up and the community will rally around it. Not a lot of other cities where you have that opportunity. Usually, you have to rise up using the ladder and you can't just get access to great leaders like you can in Des Moines or Little Rock or KC, St. Louis. There's a heck of a lot of opportunities in the middle of the map right now and it's a great story too.

Geoff Wood:    Yeah, I would totally agree with that. I've talked about this in the podcast before but lived in Indianapolis from ‘04 to ‘09 and Indy is not that much bigger than Des Moines, it's probably three times the population but it's really a small Midwestern city. I never felt as connected or that people are as accessible there as they've been in Des Moines. I didn't come to Indy with the same focus that I had when we came back to Des Moines in ’09 where I was like, I'm looking to something with the startup community who’s doing something with start- … Would do I talk to? 

You sit down with one person and they say you should meet this person and then they make the phone call or e-mail to introduce you and then go on from there. Then when I got into the community building piece specifically, like easier to access the next level of people the CEOs, the politicians, people like that. Everybody's willing to … Maybe they would've been if I would've asked in Indianapolis but I just never felt like it was accessible in the same way. I didn't know what Kansas City would be like. I mean Kansas City and Indy are probably about the same size.

Max Farrell:    Yeah, I know folks that are immersed in both of those communities. They've managed to find their way. Yeah, I think one of the key things is just like in your experience here in Des Moines is knowing specifically what you’re looking for. It's like I want to be more involved in the startup community and then doing that. But then again, this whole startup wave, I think you've seen it the same way that I have, is really taken off in the past, let's say five, six years in the Midwest or anywhere in the flyover country. What probably wasn't there in '04 was probably there in 2010 in Indy.

Geoff Wood:    That corresponds exactly with when I moved back 2009 so maybe I hit an interesting area at the right time to open some of those doors. If I was trying to start a restaurant or do something like the social club or something different like at the time you may not have been the same for that. I found this community to be really welcoming and everybody, we talked about this with somebody else a couple weeks ago, it's not seven degrees of separation here, it's like one.

Max Farrell:    Or and also seven degrees outside.

Geoff Wood:    And seven degrees outside. We have to huddle inside for warmth but it's a good point. How have you seen that, so Create Reason, you're working with established businesses primarily? Have they been as receptive to you as maybe what you felt startup community was before you got involved?

Max Farrell:    Somewhat. There's been a lot of … There's been a learning curve on my end. I was very ambitious to jump in and say I'm going to help these established companies. We have been able to using a lot of the same approaches that have learned in working in start-ups and also building startup communities of how can you get people excited about their ideas and actually executing on them and you're making sure to wade the waters of a community which company is essentially a community. It's just different dynamics. A lot of the knowledge that I came in with was certainly helpful. I just know that established companies, it takes a lot longer to make the magic happen.

Geoff Wood:    There's definitely a bureaucracy that builds up over time in any company which kind of navigate through that I imagine as you don't have a startup company because you're typically asking the founder.

Max Farrell:    Absolutely.

Geoff Wood:    When I've tried to do conferences where we try to get established company speakers, it's really hard because you have to not only identify company doing something interesting but somebody who’s inside the company that would be willing to talk about it. With startups, it's always the founder that talks, it's really easy to identify.

Max Farrell:    One of the problems that identify, and I guess you could look at as an opportunity too, is that in a startup community, you have people from various companies that will mingle with one another and openly share this is where we messed up, this is where we’re struggling. We went through that three months ago. Here's what you can do to overcome this and it's very collaborative because  it is about building a community up and one another up whereas in established companies, there are several innovation efforts in all different communities. Des Moines is no different where you have this internal innovators that are siloed inside the organization. They're seen as these crazies inside the company because they're doing something away from core business focus but then they don't even reach out to folks in other companies inside the same community so they’re super siloed and so it makes it a lot tougher to build up when the only person that you have to get feedback from is yourself.

Geoff Wood:    Yeah, the crazies is an interesting way to look at that. Jack Welch or one of those kind of management CEO gurus you read about in MBA classes about, one of his pieces of advice was to stay away from the home office as much as possible. Always work in the periphery where you can avoid the red tape, you can avoid the drama and just get stuff done. Until you get to a point where you can only work in the home office, like you can build faster away from all of that. I don’t know if that's Jack Welch or not but that's just what's jumping out of my head as the person who said that.

Max Farrell:    That trend is certainly evident in a lot of corporate innovation circles where we have an increasing number of established companies that are building hubs in Silicon Valley, to have a core team there or even Austin Texas.

Geoff Wood:    Walmart Labs right?

Max Farrell:    Walmart does have a lab away from the core office which is somewhat concerning when you have the core office in let’s say Northwest Arkansas and then they build in Silicon Valley, well the dollars and talent leaves but then you do have other instances where people just have them in a different part of the city. In St. Louis, one of the things I've seen is you have companies like Boeing that have their own Boeing venture team that's a separate part of the city and then Purina has their own separate office, 10, 15 minutes down the road.

Geoff Wood:    I wonder if John Deere is that way because corporate John Deere is Moline,  Illinois but the Intelligent Solutions Group, the people building the software and probably the innovative stuff for our listenership, is in Des Moines, three hours away. Wonder if that’s strategic in that regard?

Max Farrell:    Possibly, could also be easier access to talent. 

Geoff Wood:    It could be.

Max Farrell:    Just one thing that I think is …

Geoff Wood:    Why are you hating on Moline, Illinois?

Max Farrell:    I'm going off hypotheses. We all have to have hypotheses and we go out to test them. I don’t know if I plan to test the Moline tech on but …

Geoff Wood:    We've already talked more about Moline tech than I know about it.

Max Farrell:    You set yourself up for that one but it's … I really do believe that there's a significant wealth of tech talent here. Some of it's just tucked away.

Geoff Wood:    I would agree. Can you give an example of where Create Reason has really been impactful with the business or maybe not, you don't have to name the business but what have you done inside the business as part of …

Max Farrell:    One of the things that we do is we've built out this function inside the company. It’s part experience, part workshop but a lot of action where we actually … we take companies and bring them in a room together, we call the creation jam and we get people from all different business units so the revenue, the technical, the operations, the creative and have them share, “Hey, these are the problems I'm facing and these are the ideas I have around them.”

Similar to an internal hackathon, or Startup Weekend and we get teams to operate cross functionally, break down the silos and really figure out okay how can we build this thing or solve this problem that somebody internally is having . What you start to get is instead of people just being isolated, they have outside perspective coming from inside the organization because the marketing professional’s interacting with somebody from the software team that they never knew before. At the end of one or two days, when we run something like this, we have people that have built out well-thought-out concepts or even possibly prototypes that the company can then decide to implement into the organization. 

There's one organization we worked with down south a couple of months ago. I checked back with him last week and they’ve actually committed to two of the ideas that were built on. Both of them are going to see the light of the day by the end of March. To really be able to say I have these ideas and do something with them, is what's powerful. I think that's the big difference maker. For me, I was really bothered when companies would pay $5,000 for a keynote speaker to talk for 45 minutes to an hour. People get all excited, they scribble down all sorts of notes on a yellow loose leaf paper and get back to their desk, see e-mails are unread, throw that piece of paper in the drawer and never look at it again. No progress was made. With brainstorming, sharing ideas that don't go anywhere, that's just it, they're just ideas and ideas have a net value of zero if they're not acted on. For us, the big thing was getting people to know that they do have the ability to act on things.

Geoff Wood:    Makes sense. I never worked in a really big company like three hundred people being the most, which is still officially small business.

Max Farrell:     I'd say that's big.

Geoff Wood:    It feels big compared to … I tend to work on my own or with five, ten folks. But in some of those companies, I remember some of my biggest frustrations were observing something that marketing was doing or finance was doing but because I was in the business … I was technical staff, I didn't really have a place to tell them that or if I did tell, I usually would tell them because I share my opinions pretty openly. They didn't have to listen to it or care to listen. They didn't think I had value in what I was sharing with them. So I like what you're doing and it's part of why I like working with small teams is that even if my focus is one thing, I have input on everything the organization is doing or can at least provide it for perspective. I would imagine that creation jam idea is people get the opportunity to express that in the areas that they typically have.

Max Farrell:    Yeah certainly. Another downside of silos is that you may see what marketing is doing but where do you take that? There are political happenings that you have to wander through inside an established company. It's unfortunate but that is the game in a lot of places. Having those moments where you can at least have a touch point within the marketing team and say, “Hey Suzie from the marketing team, glad we got to participate together in that thing. Just want to let you know this is something I'm seeing from the outside. I don't know if this is helpful or not but here's my insight.” Just even having that touch point of knowing somebody else, is huge.

Geoff Wood:    Chance to feel like you're heard whether they ignore you are not after that, at least you got a chance to … It's not something where you're like, “Oh, I should've … I knew better than that.”

Max Farrell:    Yeah. Being heard is key for sure.

Geoff Wood:    That's pretty cool. I do you want to talk about Arkansas a little bit, because your parents live in Arkansas. My parents live in Arkansas. I'm not from Arkansas, my parents moved down there later but as I've gone down to visit them, I've tried to meet the Arkansas community, they're north of Bentonville, so Northwest Arkansas. I've never really, actually never been to Little Rock, your part of the state.

Max Farrell:    One day.

Geoff Wood:    One day. I do want to go to the Few conference at some point. It's always been bad dates for me.

Max Farrell:    A Few one will be good this year. I talked with the organizers down there last week. 

Geoff Wood:    They scheduled it the same time we do that … I have conferences this year, keeps moving it up, it's like October. There's always something. What's the community like down there and how do you compare that and contrast that to what you see in Iowa?

Max Farrell:     Yeah, so first off, Little Rock in Des Moines are eerily similar towns. Oftentimes, I refer to Des Moines as the Little Rock of the north or Des Moines is the … Yeah, Little Rock is the Des Moines of the South just because it's similar metro size, 5 to 600,000 people, numerous suburbs, you get interstates dividing the city, similar industries.

Geoff Wood:    Just pause for a second there. Anybody listening at this point needs to tweet out Des Moines is the Little Rock of the North, just I want to see if that happens. I think it's a great slogan. Hartford of the West I've heard, it's the Des Moines slogan with the insurance but …

Max Farrell:    I'm pretty sure I'm going to be the only saying that because it's very bizarre but people in Little Rock and probably other parts of the South have a really hard time going North. It's the most bizarre phenomenon but you will get somebody that lives Northwest Arkansas that's may be three hours away from Kansas City, that would rather go spend their leisure time in Dallas or some other town and drive the extra three hours because it’s south of there.

Geoff Wood:    Yeah, people in Des Moines will go all directions though because we're three hours from everywhere.

Max Farrell:    I know and that's … Des Moines is much more mature in some senses because there's a lot of opportunity north of Arkansas if you’re willing to drive for it.

Geoff Wood:    Okay, sorry, so back to the … Yeah.

Max Farrell:    As far as the makeup of the scene, the states are very similar. Little Rock and Des Moines are similar towns, capital cities and there are some established industries there. There's finance. You have some retail on heavy hitters like Dillard’s is there.

Geoff Wood:    Dillard’s is the Hy-Vee of the South. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just trying to think of a Des Moines-based company.

Max Farrell:    You're stretching man. Then you have Northwest Arkansas, which is … It's tough to compare it to Eastern Iowa but just as far as they have the University of Arkansas similar to Iowa City has the University of Iowa but Northwest Arkansas is a really unique place is it's got four metro areas that make up the size of maybe I'd say a Des Moines or a Little Rock. They have three fortune 500s. I think the most billionaires per capita. Because they have these Fortune 500s and Walmart is based there and they have all these other brands that are there, you have …

Geoff Wood:    Walmart, Tyson?

Max Farrell:    And JB Hunt.

Geoff Wood:    The trucking company, yeah.

Max Farrell:    You've got a lot of specialists around retail, logistics and food industry in general. There's a lot of startups that are starting to blossom up from there focused on those clusters because they have immediate access to the biggest names that they can skip five or six steps just by being located there.

Geoff Wood:    Yeah, it shares the university piece with Eastern Iowa. I feel like Cedar Rapids is more of a blue-collar town, I don’t know if there … is there a blue-collar element to that? 

Max Farrell:    I'd say anywhere in the middle of the country, there's blue-collar aspects especially in the middle of the country, but with any of those, with Walmart, you’ve got numerous people that work in retail on the ground floor with JB Hunt. You've got numerous people that are truck drivers there and then you have numerous people that work in the chicken plants or the manufacturing places nearby.

Geoff Wood:    I always tell people when we talk about Northwest Arkansas, if you've ever had a bad experience customer service-wise with Walmart, go to one in Northwest Arkansas because it is pristine. Very different than some of the Walmarts that you'll go to in the North, where they open up another lane for you if there's three people waiting. They're just, “Oh let me help you over here.” It's very different going to Walmart down there than it is up here. 

Max Farrell:    They also do testing grounds there. I haven't been able to experience them because I don't go to Bentonville, where Walmart’s headquartered much, but I know that Walmart’s been experimenting with I think it's convenient stores, so the similar thing …

Geoff Wood:    The little market thing, that?

Max Farrell:    Even smaller, gas station convenience stores. Some of their biggest competitor in physical spaces is you have gas station. So your Casey’s and Kum & Gos which are expanding into Arkansas like crazy and then also Dollar Stores.

Geoff Wood:    I do go to Kum & Go when I'm down there like I hold brand loyalty when I'm there.

Max Farrell:    That's fine. I respect that.

Geoff Wood:    They look exactly the same as the ones up here. That's very comforting

Max Farrell:    That is comforting.

Geoff Wood:    What are the big startups in Arkansas or what's going on there? 

Max Farrell:    One startup that I'm always fond of is in Northwest Arkansas called DataRank. The reason I like those guys is one, they're buddies of mine but they were the first company from Arkansas that successfully complete Y Combinator. They actually came back to Northwest Arkansas because they had a strategic advantage in building in. What they do is they do a lot of sentiment analysis type work for brands. They've been able to grow at a really impressive rate in Arkansas because they're close to Walmart and all these other established brand names.

Geoff Wood:    For people that don't know, Walmart has an economic development that's different than Walmart in small towns around Bentonville, they bring in all the vendors, have offices and staff and people in Northwest Arkansas that work with Walmart. When you get to a certain level, you do that, right?

Max Farrell:    Right, yeah and that's-

Geoff Wood:    So you have access not just Walmart, but things that Walmart carries.

Max Farrell:    Right. I guess the equivalent would be in Des Moines if a Principal said if you want to be a vendor of Principal, you have to keep an office in downtown Des Moines. They're nearby us and Walmart amplify that hundred thousand times.

Geoff Wood:    Think of how many vendors Walmart has.

Max Farrell:    Right, and then you have thousands of extra businesses. They may have just ten people there but that's ten people from Procter & Gamble that aren’t in other places.

Geoff Wood:    What's the name of the big marketing company that Walmart uses, is it razor fish or …?

Max Farrell:     Oh the Rockfish?

Geoff Wood:    Rockfish. A lot of people I've met in the startup community came there in a digital sense to work for that company and have stayed and done other things. It's attracting talent to the community but then they spin out because they like the area and something else.

Max Farrell:      The agency evolution in Northwest Arkansas has been really fascinating because you do have immediate access to client work if you're able to do it. The Rockfish guys did that. They got the Walmart contract and grew like weeks and others spun off from that and launched their own agencies, folks around product development or different startups. You do have multiple agencies that are quietly just living a really good life Northwest Arkansas.

Geoff Wood:    Which is pretty cool for I mean when you look at cities that you want to learn from, we talk about Austin and Boulder a lot but I think that’s something interesting as well. I don’t know if it's repeatable here at all but looking at what makes that happen I think is, from a community's perspective, really interesting. Maybe that should be a Create Reason white paper to read here at some point if you want to do some research for me. That would be good. What else is going on there? I met the DataRank guys. I should say I believe I am reigning second place champion for Fayetteville Startup Weekend.

Max Farrell:     Yeah, so the Northwestern Arkansas Startup Weekend. Geoff Wood’s team was number two and you went on to Global Startup Battle so known internationally at this point.

Geoff Wood:    Number six thousand four hundred fifty-two, I think-

Max Farrell:    Let's not talk about that part of the story.

Geoff Wood:    That was actually really fun. It was a couple of years ago, so I met the DataRank guys. We never had a Y Combinator company come out of Iowa, that I know of, had a couple of TechStars companies now, not Y Combinator so that is for sure an impressive feat. It was cool that they came back and mentored at that event or around. Venture funding, some of that stuff going on, what do you see down there, billionaires left and right, right?

Max Farrell:    There are billionaires coming from Walmart then there's others that have started to make their own waves with money so again focusing on Northwest Arkansas you have this company called Acumen which did … became an e-commerce giant around selling boots. They have this website called Country Outfitters and just became probably the world's largest seller of cowboy boots and just crushed it.

I think they have a valuation of well over one hundred million at this point, I think. Don't quote me on that. I know they're founder, his name is John James, he left recently to focus on his own VC efforts. He's apparently raising one hundred million dollar fund for Arkansas to grow startups and then connect access to capital. 

One of the interesting things I'm seeing in communities like Northwest Arkansas or Central Arkansas is that some of these former entrepreneurs, they're jumping into the venture capital game are saying we can't do it all here. We can't do the series A, B or C. A lot of money is on the coast and they're better equipped to handle that kind of growth. What we can do is we can do really solid seed rounds of two hundred and fifty five hundred thousand as opposed to in the past, we've had seed rounds of twenty-five, fifty thousand which is nice and any funding is great to keep the momentum going but you can do a heck of a lot more with 250K than you can with 50.

Geoff Wood:    Yeah, think you'll be successful?

Max Farrell:    We’ll see. The interesting approach for this one is creating a venture studio. I'm not sure what that will look like just yet but the whole idea of incubating startups quickly over a period of thirty, sixty, ninety days with direct access to talent and then proving out a concept to then determine if it receives capital is a model that's been increasing in a few different circles around the US. I don't know if you've seen much of that?

Geoff Wood:    There's one in Bloomington, Indiana that's been on for a long time that I'm blanking on the name of but always thought it was interesting.

Max Farrell:    SproutBox?

Geoff Wood:    SproutBox, that's it. Yeah, exactly. Similar story. Guys who really had a successful company, had an exit but they still had the team left over after the exit and a bunch of cash. They were incubating people’s ideas but it wasn't like you had to necessarily come with the fully formed team. It was bring your idea to us and we will help you build it out over the 60 to 90 days and they did several sprouts. I'm not caught up within the last year so I don’t know what they're exactly up to. It's that type of model, right?

Max Farrell:    Yeah, very similar. I think their approach was community focus too, which I think you have to be in it for the right reasons as you build something. I know that's one thing that will be happening in Northwest Arkansas then there's a firm in Little Rock that launched a VC group called Accelerate Capital. Their whole thing is solely providing 250K seed rounds and then also supporting with hands-on help to get the startup off the ground. A good colleague of mine, his name is Dustin Williams, his conversion rate optimization and user experience badass. He was brought on to that team to help some of these companies get off the ground and get past some of that stuff. Whereas in the past, he’ll only be working with one specific company. Now, he gets to lend his expertise to anyone that's in this fund.

Geoff Wood:    Yeah, very cool interesting stuff. Like you said, Arkansas has a special place in my head, my heart I guess, just because my folks being down there, it's always interesting for me to go to see other cities and learn from them and what they're doing from a community building perspective. It's great to catch up with you on that. I think we run a little short on time so as far as Create Reason, where is the best place people can find out more about what you're doing there?

Max Farrell:    Oh man, the Internet or find me.

Geoff Wood:    The Google machine, just type in Create Reason.

Max Farrell:    Yeah, the Google machine. The website is createreason.com. Also Twitter is @CreateReason. Personally my e-mail is max@createreason.com if folks want to get in touch and learn more about what we're doing, but yeah, it's a lot of fun to get people excited about the work they do.

Geoff Wood:    If people want to listen to you beatbox, where's the best place for them-

Max Farrell:    No, to rap, I don’t beatbox. I rap.

Geoff Wood:    You rap, okay alongside … Yeah I see Beatbox sometimes. Right, the South African guy that … yeah.

Max Farrell:    Oh yeah, totally yeah. There's the track with the South African beatboxer. I'd say the best place for that is just my personal website. It's maxf.co. I think there's links to my Sound Cloud and some music videos and whatnot so folks can just jump on there.

Geoff Wood:    Awesome man. Thanks for coming in today.

Max Farrell:    Thank you Geoff, you're the man.